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Daily Discussion Thread – 7/20/17

8 years ago
Daily Thread
251 Comments

Hey! Happy Thursday! Come chat with us today… we got NJPW G1 Climax going on, Impact tonight and of course Battleground this weekend. Plus, is Brock Lesnar headed back to UFC? That plus GWWE talk and more below. Join in!

251 thoughts on “Daily Discussion Thread – 7/20/17”

    1. Was just thinking about this yesterday…it’s hard for him to be ranked too high due to the short time he spent in WWE, and he didn’t have the most spectacular matches. Still, a guy that comes in a beats the Rock, Jericho, and HHH and stays super over with the crowd, and then comes back 14 years later and gets over EVEN BIGGER , creates a HUGE moment with Brock at SS and a very good, short title match at Wrestlemania…I have no idea where I’m going with this – I’m not sure where he lands but he should be in a Top 100 IMO, likely toward the latter part of the bottom 50.

      1. This all sounds right. Before this latest run he may have missed the cut but I believe his work from November to April was elite and bumps his resume up big time. His Mania match was fantastic, cut great promos and delivered some big time moments. He made every second of screen time count this time around.

          1. In fact…other than vs. DDP in WCW, Goldberg/Brock III may be my favorite Goldberg match.

            Brock has way better matches of course against Cena, vs. Rollins/Cena, vs Reigns…but as far as short sprint matches go it’s Elite IMO.

          2. Absolutely. I have yet to rewatch since being there live but I know I was definitely around **** at that time. It was such a fun monster bomb throwing match with zero rest or down time. They just never stopped and let it all hang out. Super intense match to cap off a shockingly fun feud.

          3. Just rewatched. Obv having 10 hours of drinking behind me helped the experience live, but I’d still say it’s a **** match as long as you’re judging it on the proper curve “short, intense Brock match”

          4. Question for another Day/Thread…is Brock Top 10? I imagine it will be an obvious “Yes” for some, and heresy for others.

    1. For me yes. I think he might be the best pro wrestler of all time. He doesn’t have the body of work but does eveything right. His ring work is excellent. His selling is incredible. His character is impeccable. Whwn you watch his matches he does about a million little things from facial expressions to body movements.

      1. And the selling…I didn’t even mention the selling. Good point, he is one of the better sellers EVER! And he sells in a way that still makes him look like a BEAST…watch his selling of Taker’s nut shots in their more recent feuds, or selling of his ribs after a Goldberg spear…his wobbles after a Superman punch…I may be talking myself into an even higher ranking right now

    2. I think it’s very close because he’s clearly just outside the All-Time Greats…but yes I think I will have him at #9 or #10. Off the top of my head he just has SO many Elite matches that I LOVE to re-watch…not just matches I find myself reminiscing about…but ones I actually go back to watch all the time because they are so good and unique. Off the top of my head:

      vs. Rock at Summerslam
      vs. Taker Hell in a Cell #1
      vs. Cena Extreme Rules
      vs. CM Punk Summerslam
      vs. Cena Summerslam squash
      vs. Cena/Rollins Royal Rumble
      vs. Taker Hell in a Cell #2 (saw this live and loved it but haven’t rewatched)
      vs. Goldberg WM 33

      He’s maybe the most unique candidate because his body of work is so small and so elite, and yet part of what makes him so special is that we don’t see him every week and we never saw him on top for years on end. He’s NEVER been boring.

      1. Taker at SS15 was pretty damn good too.

        I will always talk up the Big Show stretcher match at JD03 as well. Plus the series with Kurt in 2003, all three are very good -> great.

        And of course his title bout with Eddie.

          2. oversight, was thinking of that one but left it off…it’s actually insane how much 4 1/2 – 5 star matches he has, especially when compared to his ratio of “matches”

          3. His whole series with Angle is pretty great too. I LOVE the mania 19 main event.

    3. Hell no. He has an impressive roster of great matches, but a weighty percentage of ho-hum matches in his recent run too considering how sparse it is, and the “suplex a guy and stand around for a minute waiting for him to get up for another suplex” schtick gets me tuning out pretty quickly. For me that’s a far bigger detriment than his promos during the times they’ve separated him from Heyman.

      Might land around the middle of the list for me, maybe a little higher.

    5. I will have to do more research, but he will be 15-25 range for me. He has the Jump up Factor for me. From beating the Streak, the WM match with goldberg. Also I loved his work with Kurt Angle.

  3. Watching these early 1995 Raws… I really had no idea it took this long for Jerry Lawler to take the color spot permanently. I assumed he took over when Savage left but it looks like it doesn’t happen until after WMXI.

  5. Going through the G1 matches and just finished SANADA vs EVIL.

    Very good match!

    Watching it, I couldn’t help but feel that if Seiya Sanada & Katsuhiko Nakajima from NOAH switched companies and characters, both guys would be way better off. Sanada becomes stoic babyface fighting champion and NAKAJIMA becomes bat carrying, silent heel enforcer.

    It reminds me of 2012 Dolph & Miz, where each guy was the perfect character for the other. Dolph was handed an entourage as a heel to chest his way to a title and Miz was made into Ric Flair’s babyface protege and Next Nature Boy.

  6. I’ve been going through the PTB back catalogue from the beginning, I’m now up to ep.401 talking about RR 06 and Scott has just made a joke about Jason Jordan being Kurt Angle’s love child!

    couldn’t help but laugh at the irony of this 15 months later

      1. It’s been a great journey! The one thing I’ve noticed is the growth of everything – even though I was doing it at some points 4 years later, I felt like i lived it too, the launch of the website being a standout moment. I’m really glad I’ve done it!

        1. That is awesome, I am glad you went through them all as well, makes it even more worth it to have built the show and have it all archived for people that come on board late. Been a crazy journey for sure. Will be curious your thoughts on the 2016 XMAS play lol.

          1. I look forward to it! The VKM coma saga was a highlight so a christmas play can only be a good thing haha

    1. Probably amongst the most successful foreign heel right? Had a good run as a dominant top heel, had good matches with Hart and Luger, delivered several key moments in 1993-4. Has some fun stuff in 1995 as well. Main evened two Manias, which is a huge feat. Better worker than given credit for. I recommend his match with Hart on the survivor series showdown in 1993.

    2. He’d be on my list if I were making one (probably somewhere in the middle). His run as champ was actually quite good as by the time Mania X came around you were just dying to see him get his butt kicked. One of the few times I really dug the evil foreign heel gimmick (for me it usually comes off as desperate) and adding Cornette in and teaming him with Owen was equally good.

  9. Non scientific, Non star ratings for G1 Day 2:

    Juice-Kojima: Great
    Elgin-Tonga: Good
    SANADA-EVIL: Great
    Okada-Yano: Good
    Omega-Suzuki: Good

  10. The build to WM XI is so odd. The top two matches were built well but Vince just suddenly announces other matches out of nowhere on commentary during a match. They didn’t use that roster well at all for that show.

    1. The build to XI is one of the things that turned me off the product for the first time. Didn’t dig the Bigelow/Taylor angle. I agree, they had a pretty solid roster, all things considered, even with the lack of mega star power.

      1. Everyone is just sort of floating around week to week with no real concrete issue. The only feuds that are solid and ongoing are:

        Diesel/Shawn
        LT/Bigelow
        Luger/Corporation

        Even Razor and Jarrett haven’t had much interaction.

        1. I sort of feel like Bret/Owen would have been a better route to go than Bret/Backlund since Bret already got a shot at the title and didn’t regain it and Owen was largely responsible for it. A nice, brisk brawl between the two would have livened up that show considerably.

          1. Bret vs. Owen
            Luger & Bulldog vs. Tatanka & IRS (or Kama, whatever)

            probably two matches that should have happened… although Owen & Yoko winning is one of the best moments of that show

  12. G1 Day 2 musings – only undercard match I watched was Ibushi/Kawato vs. ZSJ/Desperado and it was everything i wanted out of a preview match for tomorrow. Plus Kawato got to take it to both ZSJ and Despy, before he’s eventually beaten down enough. Ibushi hits a gorgeous drop kick off the top rope in this match.

    1. Juice/Kojima – these guys threw everything at each other that they had. Loved Kojima lariating the leg to crotch Juice on the top rope. Loved the top rope cutter + Juice punching a lariat, so Kojima uses the other arm for a big nearfall. ***1/2

    2. Tama/Elgin very solid – really liked the booking and the finish was a terrific counter. Tama worked most of these underneath as a babyface – i liked his comeback. ***

      1. I’m taking up the charge for Muraco. He’s top 25 without and doubt and the greatest IC champion of all time (hear me out). Muraco followed an amazing reign in 81 with possibly the greatest run with the IC belt in 83. Muraco carried that company in 83 as the wheels fell off Backlund. When in WWE history can you ever say that the IC Champ carried the promotion. He followed this up in 85 with a great trilogy of MSG matches with Hogan and a nice feud with Steamboat. Plus Fuji Vice. Come on.

          2. A few IC matches with Pedro are on their too. Check the MSG house shows they just added.

          3. cool, I’ll check ’em all out – he’s one of those guys I *know* deserves a spot, but my exposure to him didn’t start until 88 or so and all I remember are some shitty matches with Dino Bravo.

          6. I don’t have the network (I just have a large collection of shows), but any of the 85 MSG matches with Hogan are really great. He had a feat early 84 MSG match with Tito. He had an amazing strap match at the Spectrum with Snuka and a very fun tag match with he and Fuji vs Tito and Steamboat at the Spectrum in 85. The Title Change with him beating Morales in 83 at MSG was great.

    2. Before Piper came into the territory in late ’84, Muraco was the best heel they had. Sharp on the mic, underrated worker, not afraid to blade, and knew how to draw heel heat. Feud with Snuka is legendary.
      Later on, him and Fuji formed one of the best worker-manager combos in company history. Unfortunately, his babyface run in late ’87 into ’88 was not very good. Was mainly used to help make Wariror and Bam Bam look good in tag matches against the OMG and Butch Reed.
      His overall time with the company was successful. I’m finding room for him between 30-40.

      1. His promos were tremendous. I’ve watched the new years eve 84 promo he cut on Patterson, calling him boring a billion times and still laugh

    2. Damn, one of my favorite singers like Cornell.
      Saw Linkin Park live at MSG and Jay-Z showed up at the end.
      Great show live and I was even liking their new single “Heavy.”
      Really sucks.

          1. I first came across it when The Elite came over here for a mini tour so I thought it was a reference to that, I didn’t know it was a thing.

      2. He’s at about the 90 days post ROH now. I also thought they’d grab him even earlier – when we saw him in Jan ’15 he was can’t miss .

        1. Problably top 30 for me, which is sttange because I never really connected with him. His contributiins to tag wrestling are astounding as is that singles run 2007/2008. So over.

    2. Top 30 for me. Rates very high for me in Nuance. Hits every category. If his personal demons had not derailed him I think he would be a Top 10 contender. Love his 2nd run. The Matt Hardy feud was really the only thing during that run that I didn’t particularly like just because brother vs brother feuds almost never work (unless you’re Bret and Owen).

      1. I might’ve told this story a million times, but the Dinner & a Movie guy is Paul Gilmartin and he hosts a mental wellness podcast today (The Mental Illness Happy Hour). Eric Bischoff (whose name he could not recall) approached him to the do the angle and he just sorta rolled with it despite knowing nothing about wrestling. He didn’t have much interaction with the people involved. In true WCW fashion, the thing sounds like it was pretty thrown together, hitting the broad strokes and largely improvising the details. He said the Diamond Cutter (“it’s like he puts you in a headlock, then walks away and falls”) hurt like a motherfucker. His glasses exploded immediately upon impact, and it was all he could do to get home and crawl into bed. Wrenched his back and was sore for a week. Looked good though!

  26. Austin/HHH probably should’ve closed the show…though I guess Rock winning the belt over Kurt was needed to send the crowd home happy.

      1. Austin/HHH is so epic…has a Magnium/Tully feel to it in that you sense both guys really want to pound the shit out of the other bc their hatred is so intense.

          2. Orton/HHH never needed 3 stages of anything. Why the Hell during this period was Orton not put over HHH without a fucking brigade of help??

          7. The bad thing is… as awful as that was; hhh was a breath of fresh air after the orton Batista feud. Said it before I’ll say it again, I’ll see your hhh reign of terror and raise you Orton on top in spring of 09.

          8. It’s weird because Orton in theory was at his hottest??? Just delivered duds in the ring. I think he lost a lot of heat/motivation after mania 25.

          9. I’be been watching those raws for the first time and I just find his character work to be pretty bad. The matches suck to boot. Plus Smackdown was on fire at this point. So the direct comparison at the time didn’t help matters

          10. Agreed. Most of the Raw stuff from that year is dreadful. I AM only watching PPVs though. So my lens may be off.

          11. I’ve been watching since day after mania. Up to Bash 09. Every ppv thus far has been thumbs up. Backlash, judgment Day, extreme rules, and now the Bash. I believe things start to
            dip in the fall but I really want to give the endless Cena orton matches an honest look.

          12. Yeah all the PPVs are good. Just by 2009 I’m so burned out on anything involving Orton, Batista (until the turn) and HHH.

          2. Yes. The unmasking on the 619 was brilliant. Their timing was flawless on that.

          3. 08: Jericho/Michaels
            09: Jericho/Rey
            10: Punk/Rey

            Great three year stretch of in depth stories featuring those three guys.

  30. Perfect cool down match: a tag match with King and Stacey Carter.

    This was it too for Lawler on PPV til December…Heyman announcing coming real soon!

          1. Yeah that sounds right, I feel like Kat got axed literally right after NWO and that is why it was such a shock because she had that angle going on.

  31. Guessing Kat have an alleged attitude problem and getting canned was to her not liking the booking of her being in RTC. Bc King still comes back almost immediately after they break up.

    If they really wanted Lawler gone, they wouldn’t have brought him back that soon, I think.

      1. The Chester Bennington suicide really effected me because I grew up on the music. It sucks. I’ll be doing a tribute tomorrow on Montco Radio

      1. Blew through the backlog last year… really enjoy it but the wife checked out so I have lagged on catching up. Really funny show that clicks and hits the next gear at the very end of season one.

  34. Loving these new Old School uploads. Watching 1/11/86 Boston Garden right now. Scott McGhee and Moondog Spot just had a decent little match. But dear God now it’s Les Thornton vs Cousin Luke

          3. That set up the title match the following month where savage wins it, nice little back to back matches at the garden in the winter of 86.

          5. Hercules vs. Haynes from this August show is pretty solid. Hercules has impressed me since the light bulb went on for him in early 86.

          7. Yeah he is someone I have really come around on during this 86 stretch. His first couple of MSG matches were rough but he has been pretty fun since.

          8. 89-90 Hercules is just sad. Way too “bulked up” and thank god for Power & Glory because he got better again when that happened.

          9. It is surprising he was better as a heel because you think his offense would be limited but he had a good power arsenal.

    2. Just from reading earlier about no way out 01 and I know Austin hhh was great but the rock angle match was good just tough going on later after Austin and hhh tore the house down. I know people don’t think rock angle was bad just when you think of nwo 01 you immediately think Austin hhh.

          3. Between that and the miz match last fall Ziggler has these moments where he gets the crowd behind him.

          5. That was when Del Rio face run fizzled out and everyone was ready to boo him again

          6. Payback and hell in a cell are the only 2 wwe ppvs I haven’t seen from that year.

          7. I recall at the time Payback being a breath of fresh air. Didn’t love the main event. Haven’t seen it since except for the Del Rio match.

    3. There’s a really good TLC match from an October 02 Raw that doesn’t get talked about at all. It gets overlooked because it’s right in the middle of the Smackdown 6 goodness and I believe it is also the genesis of the Katie Vick garbage. The match itself is excellent though

          1. Yah Katie Vick starts at the end of that match. It was also voted Raw match of the decade on that 10th Anniversary special in early 03.

    6. Feel like Bret/Owen cage match from Summerslam 94 gets talked about way less than the Mania X match. That cage match might be my favorite match from 94 WWF.

      1. I think it gets mixed reviews because it’s a great match that didn’t really need the cage. I personally really enjoy it and the post match stuff.

        1. My issue is that it gets a wee bit long. They tell a great story but the story doesn’t evolve. They could have cut 5 minutes and been better for it. I stead of 30 escspe attempts do 20. I still went ****

      2. A few of us watched that a couple months ago for a SS project (tabled until next year). It is really good but I do think it is behind WMX. I had it at ****1/4 and at the back end of the top ten all time SS matches as of now. I still have about ten or so SummerSlams left to watch.

    9. How about the New Breed vs. ECW Originals street fight from two weeks after WM23? And speaking of that time period, Benoit and MVP had a great match on SmackDown from Providence in that time too… I was at that show.

    10. I remember JoMo vs. Cena on ECW the day Vince mentioned Benoit’s name will never be mentioned on WWE TV again being really good. No one talks about that match.

      1. Speaking of Morrison I liked the falls count anywhere match with miz on raw in 2011, I know miz title reign isn’t looked back on fondly but I enjoyed that match.

  39. In this episode of Letters From Center Stage, JT & Allan head into their offices in Atlanta, GA to dive deep into the outer rim of the nostalgia mothership that was WCW:

    1. The Plunder Bucket: Harley Race’s Managerial Career / The Life & Times of Lee Marshall

    2. 1-800-COLLECT Road Report: Monday Nitro 7/24/00

    3. The Long Topic: Ranking the Years – Part One

    To write in to the mailbag, tweet @allan_cheapshot or @place2benation

    http://placetobenation.com/letters-from-center-stage-14/

          1. Him trying a Russian accent also made him sound mentally handicapped for some reason. He couldnt even do that right.

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