7) How sustainable is a shared cinematic universe?
Russell: That all depends on the willingness and ability to establish new heroes and villains and/or legacy characters. Captain America: The Winter Soldier has a golden opportunity to do both of these things and new movies like Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man could bring us our next A-listers. It’s not a guarantee, but the potential is there. Actors, unlike comic book characters, have this little problem called aging. It’s unavoidable and it’s doubtful Disney/Marvel would think recasting somebody like Robert Downey Jr. is a good idea. But audiences will respond to good films. Where was Iron Man before his 2008 film? Was Thor a household name before 2011?
Todd: Well, Robert Downey Jr.’s three contracted Iron Man solo films are done, and from here on out he’s only going to be in the remaining “Avengers proper” movies, currently slated to end in 2018. Will they gradually phase into another wave at that point, or will they just hit reset button? I think (to paraphrase Jordan’s hero) “10 years is a long time” and they’ll take a few years off before starting the whole thing up again (like Batman or Spider-Man) for a new generation. Hopefully, they’ll have regained rights to the X-Men, Fantastic Four, and Spider-Man by then. THAT would give the next go-round of reboots a shot in the arm.
Tim: I do feel like it has a limited shelf life. Increasing production costs give way to diminishing returns, so studios compensate by greenlighting smaller films to keep a healthy bottom line, potentially at the expense of the brand. Between money and age, the cast also becomes harder to keep in tact. When it comes to an extremely popular role like Robert Downey Jr.’s Tony Stark, recasting is a dubious proposition. At that point, it might be in everyone’s best interests to call it a day and give the properties a rest.
I’ll also be the first to admit that I’m getting spoiled by these films. I wonder if part of my problem with Iron Man 3 came down to having less appetite for Iron Man solo films. I was turned off by the ways they chose to set it apart from its predecessors, but at the same time… what felt familiar may have felt a little TOO familiar. In a sense of, “same old, same old.” Iron Man is one film up on Thor and Cap, so it’s understandable to find this sort of malaise in the one and not the others. Additional sequels for the solo characters do not seem to be on the horizon, and I think that’s for the best. We can look forward to Avengers 2 in 2015 and a third entry is assured in the not-too-distant future. After that, I imagine it will be hard to justify continuing this particular series. The settings and universe as a whole can persist; it’s the characters that need to be cycled in and out.
Nick: I’d say Marvel would have to be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel sometime soon. I still think they can stretch this into Phase 3 and possibly Phase 4, but past that, the continuity begins to get a bit tough for younger and more casual fans to keep up with. The longest running franchise, James Bond, benefits from not having a set continuity that fans have to keep up with, which has enabled it to stand the test of time. Much like in comics, the time will come sometime in the next 10-15 years where Marvel has to consider the possibility of a reboot. Besides, actors will age and it will become necessary to replace them. A reboot would offer that possibility and also offer new filmmakers a fresh start with each character.
Greg: There is both a micro and a macro answer to this. From a micro standpoint, there is absolutely a shelf life for an individual franchise. In this case, the Avengers story has to come to an end at some point. Actors age, characters grow stale, story wells run dry. But in the larger sense, there’s no reason a shared universe can’t go on indefinitely. It just has to be handled carefully and smartly. The Avengers films are opening up a larger Marvel Universe, which will be further expanded by the upcoming Netflix series. If and when the Avengers movies dry up, there are other C-list characters that could be elevated by solid feature films. Dr. Strange, Black Panther and Ant-Man are already in discussions, but other characters such as the Punisher, Namor and Nova could open up different corners of the Marvel Universe and lead to more franchises within the same shared universe.
8) Is there the potential to expand the concept even further? For instance, could or should comic book companies work harder to integrate their comics with their TV and film properties, or should they remain separate as they (mostly) are today?
Russell: This all goes to missed opportunities to me. Marvel has a decent system at work right now by simply featuring the villain or villains from their films in the comics of the same name when the films come out. It definitely helps new fans feel better about picking up a comic that might have been around for a long time. “Arrow” has had an interesting effect on the Green Arrow comic, for example. While the villains are different between the two, they have a similar tone and dynamic and even use some of the same characters. That’s been a smart move for DC to take cues from their hit properties in other mediums. If it gets more people to check out the comics, I say give it a shot. It’s one way to get some new faces into the local comic shops, for sure.
Todd: If it’s not broke…
Marvel’s films really haven’t re-energized comic sales; the film and television industries will keep harvesting ideas from comic books for the foreseeable future, and the comics will keep characters stagnant as to maintain recognizable trademarks to be used in films/tv/video games.
Comics are a breeding ground for Hollywood’s ideas, and that’s just not going to change. Clearly though, this is a golden age for on screen superheroes, and the future looks bright for the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
Tim: Comics and film are separate mediums and I think that most attempts at marrying them in a narrative sense are asking for trouble. I guess the ultimate extension of this is a world where “Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.” implores viewers, “for the conclusion of this thrilling adventure, be sure to pick up Abigail Brand and the Agents of S.W.O.R.D. from your local comic shop, on sale next Wednesday!”
Or I suppose more realistically, they would direct us to obtain it digitally.
It’s never going to happen, and not only because film revenues and television ratings so rarely translates to comic sales.
More practical will be efforts to nudge the comics in the direction of their film counterparts so that they sync up a little better, at least superficially. We’ve been experiencing that since roughly 2001 following the success of X-Men. This isn’t a call for the comics to take a backseat to other-media adaptations, but a stab at a little corporate synergy. If even 1% of the audience that turned out for Avengers picks up a comic that they weren’t already purchasing, that would be enormous in terms of publishing dollars. The fact that they can’t manage it is pretty telling. But that isn’t a reason not to try, especially if it does no harm to the quality of the comics.
Some caution should be taken to ensure the pendulum doesn’t swing too far in favor of the shared universe. There’s a real possibility for this strategy to backfire if the universe becomes TOO connected, crowded, and overwhelming–burdensome and inaccessible to anyone outside the bubble. It’s a problem the comics have been grappling with since about 1985. It’s poetic, in a way, for the films to take advantage of the same innovation that differentiated the comics from their competitors, only for it to become a similar barrier to entry. We aren’t there yet, but five years out, sailing past Phase Three, a plethora of Netflix original programming, and Hiddleston-knows what else? Might be a very different conversation.
For now, I’m content to snack on my Junior Mints and watch the magic unfold before my eyes. If the comics lean a bit more “iconic” as a consequence, so be it. Marvel’s publishing division can be regarded as a glorified intellectual property farm today. I keep stressing the importance of the brand, and that’s just what Marvel (and DC’s) big guns are at this point. After so many years in publication, there’s little hope they’ll offer much in the way of anything new or daring. However, if their prosperity paves the way for the next little comic that could, I find that a more than acceptable trade-off.
Nick: This one is kind of a double-edged sword. There’s no question that the films need to be used to drive people into stores to buy more books. The popularity of these films is one of the biggest opportunities the industry has ever had to increase readership. So, it makes sense that companies would want to present a comic book universe and properties that are closely related to the characters presented on screen. And yet, there are decades of stories and character development in the comics that just doesn’t fit with some of the films. That shouldn’t be thrown away, especially since longtime comic readers still make up a majority of the readership. For me, I’d like to see something like DC’s line of “Young Justice” and “Green Lantern: The Animated Series” comics, which took place in the animated continuity, but had no larger tie-in to the DCU. A series of MCU comics might get people into shops, and hopefully something in the mainstream Marvel U could catch their eyes from there.
Greg: It always irked me when comics would abandon long-term developments in order to facilitate a story about whatever villain was being featured on the big screen at the time. This happened in Batman books throughout the ‘90s and 2000s, and it happened with several Marvel books as well. However, I’ve come to begrudgingly understand why these decisions are made, however frustrating they may be. There is always the chance, however slim, that a kid will leave the theater after seeing The Avengers and rush to the nearest comic shop to find a book. If that book features U.S. Agent and Thunderstrike instead of Captain America and Thor, it could be pretty confusing. The idea of a shared universe extending from films to television to comic books to the Internet is compelling. I’m in favor of anything that keeps printed comic books viable, so I’d be intrigued to see Marvel, DC or another company try this approach. Would it work? I have my doubts.
That wraps up this edition of Giant-Size. As always, we hope you found this discussion informative or, at the very least, entertaining. Be sure to check out the awesome features from Todd, Russell and Tim, and (if you can stomach it) be sure to check out our next edition of Hard-Traveling Fanboys, when Nick and I go Off the Page to analyze “Spider-Man Unlimited.” As always, feedback is welcome on the PTB Facebook page or via our PTB email accounts, GregP@placetobenation.com and NickD@placetobenation.com.
