Daily Discussion Thread – 7/17/17 G1 Climax 27 kicks off and more

For our daily discussion thread, we kick things off with the opening show for G1 Climax 27. Stick around during the day to talk about whatever’s on your mind. In the evening we’ll have our separate nightly Raw thread.

More updates will happen in this space throughout the day.

133 thoughts on “Daily Discussion Thread – 7/17/17 G1 Climax 27 kicks off and more

  1. Right now I have
    Yoshi-hashi vs Nagata ****
    Fale vs Makabe ***3/4
    Goto vs Ishii ****1/4
    I was half asleep for Fale vs Makabe
    Did I do good?

  2. Time to vent: NJPW needs to get their act together with content delivery. They are advertising the first G1 night as free but it’s impossible to actually watch on the site as far as I can tell if you aren’t subscribed. Meanwhile, they still don’t have a Roku app 3+ years in which makes things difficult. Considering signup just to watch G1, but what a dumb billing system where if I sign up today I get billed now, and then again in 13 days. These things would be incredibly easy to fix.

    1. The site redesign for them was poor and you are spot on with the ROKU thing. While I know the G-1 billing cycle is annoying, they certainly do it so people can parachute in for 1 month in the G1 and then bail so I can’t blame them for that. 19 shows for around $19 is still good value and you still would have gotten the US shows as well as stuff like the British J Cup.

      1. yeah that totally makes sense, and can’t argue with the value, it’s just 2017 so I get annoyed when companies can’t get their act together with a ROKU app, esp. when literal amateurs have them!

  3. Big day for puro business last night. G1 opener up from last year (around 6800), AJPW is claiming another Korakuen sellout, and BJW ran Sumo. No official number, but I’d be surprised if it was under 3000 for BJW.

          1. I got feisty. Down 100 from last year so all things considered not awful but not great. About on par with the WK figure from this year from that standpoint.

          2. They took a big bet with New blood main eventing their biggest show and only lost 100. That’s pretty great!

          3. I watched the final five matches and loved the show so far. A lot of great variety and even the deathmatches were brutal but really compelling. Abdullah Kobayashi gives a Giant Baba 1993 RWTL esque performance and Hideki is still the man.

    1. That’s another tough one. One thing I weigh heavily is whether a wrestler was “the guy” for a span of time, which Nash arguably was. Its more than being champion; he was the ace and main draw, even over Michael’s and Hart for a period of time. But he was terrible and so was business at that time. That being said, he’s in my bottom half between 60-70.

      1. Rewatching his rise… he was really damn good and enjoyable from June 94 – March 05… his slide coincided with them forcing him into the white bread babyface and saddled him with a parade of garbage challengers in Sid, Tatanka, Mabel, etc. Things picked back up for him late in the year and he was great again from November through his exit. His 2003 and 2011 runs were shitty though, and that does weigh in a bit too.

        1. Agreed, not to mention that disaster in 2011. Still, he held up the promotion and contributed numerous big moments and matches in his first run. He has a better pedigree than a lot of guys that are ranked higher or thought of more highly.

          1. What’s interesting is to compare him with Scott Hall and Waldman. I think Nash has the best collection of great matches, but I think as an overall TV worker, Hall might’ve been the most consistent. Nash was made into a big fight guy in 1995-96 and had a decent track record in that position, though that is helped by his repeated matches with Hart and Michaels.

          2. All three are locks for me, just depends on positioning. I think Nash definitely has the best collection of snowflakes on his resume. Hall was probably the best overall package for a WWF guy and has a bevy of moments and very good matches.

            I think Waltman was the most consistent and has the deepest volume when you factor in his initial run and then his work as X-Pac. He may finish the highest of the three for me if it were based on work alone but his promos were soft for a while until his 98 run. He has a bunch of big moments too though.

          3. I can understand that. Hall is hurt by leaving in 1996 too; he never really got his groove back after that. One thing with X-PAC is that he managed to have good matches during an era where that was a low priority. I Dont see the love for his character work, though. I Dont think he managed to do much with his character side outside of his run in 1998-99 primarily with Kane where, I will admit, he was a great douche.

          4. He played the aww shucks underdog role really well for his first year 93-94. I also loved how he humanized Kane before stabbing him in the back, that was good work.

            And while his brash 98 DX stuff may not hold up now, that was what everyone (throughout pop culture society) wanted at the time and he did it really well. He came out firing with shoot comments and X rated insults, twas the time.

          5. I thought he had solid in-ring charisma, but nothing promo-wise stands out to me until the DX run. I think he does suffer from looking back so far removed from the attitudes that made that era successful. Its hard to separate what worked then but doesn’t now from what translates well regardless of vintage.

          6. Yeah he probably tops the list of guys who don’t age well from a character perspective. I thought his awkward promo style wasn’t bad in 1994 especially around his title match with Bret.

          7. I recently watched his RAW match with Owen Hart in 1994, and was surprised by how underrated it was! Sean was great showing his aggressive side in the stretch.

          8. Yes that was really fun. He was definitely working very aggressively during that stretch. His match with Holly against Bigelow and Tatanka is great as is his solo bout with Bigelow right before the Rumble.

          9. I will check those out. He’s a guy that also should get consideration for bringing the light heavyweight style to the forefront in WWF. He was a trend-setter in that way as well.

        2. His tweener heel stuff with the semi-shoot comments right before leaving in 96 was great and gives him some points in my book. I wish he would have been able to be that character more in his original run.

    2. This list is proving to be a challenge, especially when it comes to pinpointing what to watch for blind spots. I think I’m going to need to watch some “vintage” Diesel stuff to better evaluate him, but he makes the Top 100 for the hamstring pull alone.

      1. If you sift through our Raw VV Refreshes you can get a snap shot… he did some inspired work in there.

        I love his Bret KOTR94 match … and I think it is their third best one. The only blah one is the cage at IYH6.

      2. He also has the Action Zone tag on his resume along with Bret at SurSer95 and Shawn at GFBE. Big moments too… beating Backlund at MSG, Rumble 94 Jesus push, ripping off Mad Dog’s leg.

        He had the first good Taker Mania match too.

    1. My only memory is Tony Garea completely no-selling Race’s piledriver. Garea gets piledrived, loses, and immediately gets up and walks away. 80’s Garea was the fucking worst.

          1. I even pasted the YouTube link to that match in that thread in case anyone wants to see Garea at his worst.

            I forget who, I thought it was Race, but Garea lost to a piledriver and immediately got up and walked off. Garea was the worst when he was suppose to put the other guy over.

    2. I’ve added all my “Championship Wrestling” recaps from the period between the last MSG show and this one that chronicles the Orndorff turn to the thread.

  4. If anyone wants proof that Diesel’s reign was going well and the crowd was in his corner pre-WMXI, check out his match with Jeff Jarrett on the 2/20/95 Raw.

    Still great presence, the crowd is super into him and he works a fun little **1/2 TV match. I really think Shawn going face and the Sid feud is what killed his reign. He was pretty good before that.

    1. Shawn as a face in the 90’s was the absolute worst. I think they had something with Sid as a face at this time, but that’s WWF, I suppose.

      1. Sid in 96 was 1000000x better than in 95. He was terrible in 95.

        Honestly looking back… they should have just had Shawn win at WMXI and stay heel with Sid and then do a rematch at SummerSlam. Diesel regains the title and Shawn turns face then.

          1. That match wasn’t terrible. I guess that is a feather in Diesel’s cap too.

  5. Opening multiman match from G1 was fun with Kojima and LIger being spirited. Kenny had his funny pants on so that shows you were his tag went but Suzuki did go after him which I appreciated.

    1. LIJ tag was well done and set up many potential match ups between the four when the impending dissent occurs within the faction. SANADA vs EVIL should be really good in 3 days. ***1/4

        1. YOSHI-HASHI vs Nagata: A good tourney opener overall. I liked the mat base start and the ramping up to the bombs being thrown around. YH strikes are something that are a detriment to me so seeing Nagata demolish him and get some pop and crackle on his kicks was rewarding. YH even got some nice snap on his chops here which is a better weapon for him to utilize compared to the forearms. The dueling submissions were filled with nice tension and that set the stage for the tournament overall as it felt like either man could win this one. The sequence after the back suplex nearfall lost me as they seemed to run out of ideas and YH lost most pretenses of selling the arm work that was laid out. The wrist clutch driver that YH wins with is a nice move and that was a big win for him as I only peg him to have 4 or 6 points the entire tournament. ***1/4

          1. Bad Luck Fale vs Togi Makabe: Smart move in making this a clunky brawl and the length was better on this match than Nagata vs YOSHI-HASHI. Still, Makabe is just not able to match the intensity or strikes in a brawling aspect and when that is about all you have at this point, it is a slow haul for me to gain much investment. The match worked best with Togi in the clear underdog role and having to fight from underneath against the big monster Fale. His King Kong Knee to the standing Fale looked good and him getting caught was a clever way to lead right into the finish. Not good but not awful either so a success. **3/4

          2. Tomohiro Ishii vs HIrooki Goto: Usually these matches tap out in the very good but not great range for me. This one clicked on all cylinders. It was compact, brutal and didn’t veer too far off into ridiculousness with the punishment and bombs that were thrown at each other. I think the little bits of fatigue selling went a long way to get across that these men were entrenched in a battle. The crowd also added a lot by having an electric atmosphere. Ishii leveling his forearm when Goto goes for the headbutt was excellent as was the collapsed bumps from the double clothesline. The finale was captivating with the machine gun forearms and big strikes. Again, them both taking a moment to regain their composure really helped add emphasis that while the fighting spirit is strong in both, they aren’t invincible. Finally, Goto is able to land the final GTR knockout blow and secure the win in this great slugfest. ****1/4

          3. ZSJ vs Hiroshi Tanahashi: Opening was really engaging with ZSJ like a cat chasing the canary and looking for any opening to the injured arm. He goes after the leg, he works over the other arm for a bit but he keeps his patience. This changes when Tana gets a bit of offense in and goes for the elbow drop. ZSJ pounces with the cross armbreaker and even reverses things to prevent Tana from reaching the ropes right away. After that ZSJ works over the arm for a few minutes in great fashion like you knew he would. Tana is forced to up his game and responds by tackling the leg of Zack. From there, we get a great dynamic of both guys being wounded in an area and trying to capitalize on the opponent while not making themselves susceptible to damage. Tana kicking out of ZSJ pin bridge comb was a nice nearfall. High Fly Flows feel like Tana has the match in hand but Zack catches him once again and like the previous time, he ties him up in a pretzel with extra cranking on the injured arm to secure the submission in a great moment. The bits of Desperado interplay were disappointing but this wasn’t full blown Suzuki Gun shenanigans and Zack was finally able to have the NJ match he has been capable of. ****

          4. Kota Ibushi vs Tetsuya Naito: This had a huge match feel when they entered the ring. The early portions with Naito focusing on the neck set a good ground structure for the match at hand that was reliable for him to go back too and allowed Ibushi to still do all of his spectacular stuff while still selling the damage of the body part that has been worked over. The fact that the bad neck plays into the Destino is an added bonus. Ibushi comes back and runs through his stuff including springboard moonsaults to the outside but then cagey Naito goes back to the neck and regains the advantage. This did a great job in showing how resourceful Naito is overall. The hangman neckbreaker looked great and he filled in his offense with tons of exciting stuff. Ibushi is all about th sizzle and he regains the advantage with a half suplex and then lights Naito up with some great kicks. Naito tries his parlor tricks by shoving down red shoes and charging in but he eats a wind up lariat. The crowd is now in chant mode. Naito nicely goes back to the neck with some strikes and a release German. He works for the reverse rana on the top and hits in. Naito senses he is one move away so now he goes for the Destino, in a great spot of desperation Ibushi catches him and lawn darts him into the turnbuckle. Ibushi then does his deadlift German from the outside into the ring which looks amazing every time as a feat of strength. That gets 2.999. We then get a struggle over the big move of the match which is the top rope piledriver from Ibushi. You can argue that this certainly should have been the finish because where do you go from there. Naito’s neck is now as broken as Ibushi’s. Naito musters up all strength to send Ibushi into the corner and then locks in the Destino off of a punch attempt for another 2.999 count. A second Destino puts Ibushi right on his dome and that is enough for the 3. Did they do too much? Probably Was this an exhilarating ride? Absolutely. ****1/2

          5. Agree 100% with the veering, it was something I was looking out for after the Ishii US performances. This one stayed the course pretty well.

  6. Random thought. Watching 80’s Mid-South and 90 WWF and I came to the conclusion that Black Bart was one of the worst wrestlers. Good thing he sucked up to Dusty and got some work.

    1. Too much stop and start to be very high on the list in my opinion. I had him in 80s somewhere. Gets points for somehow accumulating so many belts in the company. Not much to speak about in his run in terms of wow moments either. Match suggestions? Only stand out ones I can think of are HBK IYH 95 and his feud with Razor.

      1. That one with Diesel that I noted below was fun. He had a real good match with X-Pac at SS98 and of course he got some good stuff with Chyna right before he bolted. His match with Bret on Raw in January 95 was solid too.

        1. I feel like he was a consistent **1/2 performer, but really never had great in ring work. Not much stands out in terms of quality or personality until 1999.

  7. Up to the final COTC in my WCW timeline watch. Sad day seeing it go. They are really hyping it big time though. On the Nitro before, Sting finally shoves the Hogan vs. Sting sign in JJ’s face to get his point across. They are also really amping up Hennig being buddies with Flair.

  8. Going to post my G1 night 1 takes here as I make my way through the card.

    Undercard musings: Omega/Suzuki 6-man was a fine sampler for their Thursday match. I am super excited for that matchup. There was a bunch of feeling out here and things didn’t always look super smooth, but I can’t wait for these guys to go 1-on-1.

    LIJ tag face-off was *** , liked EVIL getting the win with a new submission too. So unique seeing these guys tag against each other, very fun.

    CHAOS tag-off was not nearly as fun, but i still sat through it and watched (so there’s that?).

    1. Yoshi-Hashi/Nagata – I’m right at ***1/4 – was very close to 3.5. Didn’t feel it went on too long, and Nagata’s offense is so f’n great. I am an unabashed mark for how he works singles matches and was hoping he’d get the W here. YH wasn’t bad, his signature comebacks were good. These guys worked well together for the most part.

    2. Goto/Ishii was brutal (not in a bad way), really like how Goto wrestles – he’s great here. Ishii is less egregious than the Omega final, but he’s still Super Ishii here and Goto sold much better here (until the end). I liked Goto flipping the script and using his own headbutt to lead into the finish. ****

    3. Sabre Jr/ Tanahashi – great matchup on paper and kayfabe-wise, which I thought the announcers did a great job of calling. Takes a couple minutes before we move into the targeted arm stuff, there were some disconnects where they weren’t on the same page. Some repeated sequences (like the arm twisting with the gut punches), never felt like Tanahashi did enough to ZSJ here knee-wise (also kind of a complaint to his Naito match tbh). Tanahashi’s selling is fine – and they build to a couple good counters late to play off early in the match. Strong finish and dramatics too. Never got into the final gear for me, but an exceptional match ***1/2

        1. Hmm… guessing he defends at Survivor Series and Rumble at a minimum and he seems to usually work Fastlane.

          I beat Ambrose gets another crack at him… maybe Balor and Rollins?

          1. I’m trying to open my mind to Bruno since he’s and his Era is a blind spot for me

          2. The cage match we are covering on tonight’s PTB Pod was really fun… July 86 MSG, Bruno & Tito vs Savage & Adonis

          3. I was listening to BTS and they say a lot of the Bruno cage matches from the mid 80s are fun

          4. My review,
            This was a fun bloody cage match that sold the reality of both men hating each other. Their chemistry was good and I enjoyed the near escape spots ***1/2

  9. My day 1 G1 Climax 27 match ratings (comments below):

    Yoshi-Hashi/Nagata ***
    Fale/Makabe **3/4 (stole Chad’s rating- it’s under 3 for me, don’t typically rate those)
    Goto/Ishii ****
    Sabre Jr/Tanahashi ***1/2
    Ibushi/Naito ****3/4

    1. I wasn’t wild for Sabre jr / Tanahashi – feels like the disconnect Chad and I had on Naito/Tanahashi from Dominion (I loved that match)

    1. Not yet, my laptop is pretty old. i’ve been following it though and by all accounts, its very good and the customizing is going well through the Steam workshop.

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